JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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After spending
yesterday evening with fixing Dialogue of some Quest plugins that
base on Tribunal.ESM v1.4, I really need to write
this...
Dialogue is linked by this Hidden "Info ID"
numbers:
If you look at a Dialogue Info/Response in TESAME,
you see three entries:
INAM = the ID of this Dialogue
Line PNAM = the ID of the previous Line NNAM = the ID of the
next Line.
As long as the dialogue line has a PNAM and NNAM
entry, the game looks for those next and previous lines in the
current dialogue chain and places the new line somewhere between
them. This works fine even if two plugins make a new line of
dialogue at the same place. The two new lines will be placed between
the old ones without any troubles.
Even when one of the
plugins/Masters has a dialogue line with only a NNAM entry, there is
no problem, the game puts this line on the very top of the
Dialogue-Chain.
What happens when two plugins/masters try
to come on top, is best described by an example:
Original
lines:
---(top) ABC DEF XYZ
Plugin 1: (newer
file date)
---(top) 1:A 1:B 1:C
ABC DEF XYZ
Plugin 2: (older
file date)
---(top) 2:A 2:B 2:C
ABC DEF XYZ
Resulting Dialogue
chain in Game:
---(top) 2:A 2:B 1:A 1:B 1:C ABC 2:C DEF XYZ
The game
exchanges the lowest Line of Plugin2 (the older one), with the next
original line, And places the other lines on top of the dialogue
chain. So there might be problems, if Plugin2 depends upon the
"2:C"-line coming before "ABC".
Even worser when both
plugins add bottom-lines:
Original lines: ABC
DEF XYZ ---(bottom)
Plugin 1:
(newer file date)
ABC DEF XYZ 1:A 1:B 1:C
---(bottom)
Plugin 2: (older file
date)
ABC
DEF XYZ 2:A 2:B 2:C
---(bottom)
Resulting Dialogue chain
in Game:
ABC
DEF 2:C XYZ 2:A 2:B 1:A 1:B 1:C
---(bottom)
Again the now undefined
"lowest" line of Plugin2 is exchanged with the nearest original line
to restore a working dialogue-chain, but now the dialogue sequence
of plugin 2 is corrupted.
In the beginning we thought it
to be more "clean" if we store only one original dialogue line in
our plugins, but this proved to be a mistake. Tribunal did the
same as we, and corrupted most of the Dialogue-intensive
plugins.
Bloodmoon hasn`t that many new top/bottom lines, and
most of us have learned our lesson, so there were almost no
conflicts between Bloodmoon and older
plugins.
Another common mistake is using the "copy"
command to make a new dialogue line, and then continuing to
change/make copies of the lower line (the original one, with the
original Info ID)
---(top) ABC (the
copy of the ABC line with a new ID, but the old
text) 2:A 2:B 2:C (id
of original ABC, but text was
changed) DEF XYZ
For a text-oriented
human it looks like a clean plugin, but for the game, that only
cares about the ID-Numbers, it`s just another plugin that tries to
put its own line on the top of the linked-list...
If you
followed me till now, you can figure out what happens when
you load this plugin together with another one with
top-dialogue:
---(top) ABC (the New ABC
line) 2:A 1:A 1:B 1:C 2:C (Original ABC-Line) 2:B DEF XYZ
The dialogue
sequence of plugin2 is
destroyed, because the original top-line and the next plugin-added
line are exchanged, but this time you ( the author of plugin 2) have
a hard time to find the bug, because you first need to find out that
you changed the original line instead of your new
one.
The best advice I can give, is: Always place your new dialogue-lines in the middle of the
topic. never use the top or bottom, and avoid
the second line, because you easily can confuse the original
top-line and the copy. Confusing is no problem as long as your new
lines aren`t at the top or bottom of the linked
list...
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
Corner
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SC_Wolf |
Disciple |
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Reged: 08/11/02 |
Posts: 1260 |
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Great Ooogly
Moogly!!!
JOG, thankyouthankyouTHANKYOU for figuring this
out!
-------------------- Keeper of the One Ring Pez
Dispenser. The One Pez Dispenser TO RULE THEM
ALL!!!
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JB. |
Curate |
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Reged: 08/06/02 |
Posts: 429 |
Loc: Sword Coast | |
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The Power of
knowledge.... Jochen...zie man with zie
plan
-------------------- how many Jennifer Lopez
faces are on the making? I need one for my character.
Post Extras: |
JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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zie man whose
plan is to get a working mod-selection for playing the game soon,
and who is angered by endless dialogue conflicts between promising
quest mods and tribunal 1.6
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
Corner
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Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1547 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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This is very
important information, and it is information that I believe very few
people here have ever heard before. If it has ever been mentioned
before, it has probably been buried deep down in the TESCS-threads.
Which is a pity.
I'll PM the moderators and ask them to
store this together with the comprehensive dialog thread (and then
I'll probably spend the rest of day looking over my own dialog
intense mods
)
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
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Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1547 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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This is
definitely vital information for all modders that work with
dialog!
The problem has been very thoroughly explained,
but I wonder if you could confirm that this would work to "clean" a
dialog:
Say that I have made a mod based on Tribunal, and
have only put one "original" dialog line on top of my dialog
entries. To make it worse, I could even be uncertain if I have
managed to copy one of my dialog lines and put it above my other
dialog entries.
So, in order to fix this, I do as
follows:
1) Move a couple of the original Tribunal dialog
entries upwards, using the <- and -> arrows, so that my own
dialog instead starts on the, say, fourth dialog line. 2) Make a
new dialog line at the very top of my own dialog, where I re-write
my top dialog line (then delete my previous top dialog line) 3)
Clean away the * from the toplines of the Tribunal dialog
entries.
If I instead should have placed my dialog at the
very bottom, I would instead move a couple of original dialog
entries downwards. I would then, just as in the previous case,
re-write my top-dialog line (as TESCS reads from to to bottom), and
clean away the * at the very bottom.
Now, as far as I can
see, the mod "should" not cause any problems. Am I
right?
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
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Mode_Locrian |
Diviner |
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Reged: 10/07/02 |
Posts: 2084 |
Loc: Bjornholm, Rykith Lowlands Region
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Wow, JOG, this
is news to me. I'm glad you posted this before I wrote too much
dialogue in my current project. I'll have to play around with it a
bit to make sure that it won't cause conflicts with other mods in
ways that I never even imagined.
This thread should be
pinned. Seriously, this is really important and really non-obvious
information.
Also, great work on Havish. I can't wait for
finals to be over so I can get back to playing it.
-------------------- My Website Bards of Vvardenfell Thread (New Info 8/15/04)
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JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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Addition:
Above I wrote that it doesn't matter when you change the
text of the original Dialogue-ID as long as you stay away from
top/bottom, but this isn't true. As soon as a plugin with a later
file-date also contains this ID (no matter if the second plugin has
the original text, or changes the original-ID itself) Your dialogue
line will be completely removed from the game...
So as a
rule: Hands of the top and bottom lines, and when
you use "copy" to create new lines always edit the upper line...
BTW: for those that don't know yet: You can see the
"Info-ID" I'm talking of, when you maximize the column between
"info" and "Disp/Index"
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
Corner
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Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1547 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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Aha!
I
remember I ran into something like that long ago.
As far as I
can remember the Info-ID was connected to the text in the dialog
line and would change if the text in the dialog line was
altered. .
I was about to release both first version of
Witchgirl Adventure and an early version of Girlfriend Breton mod.
In both cases, I had put the greetings in section 5. Now, one of the
greetings started the same way in both mods, and was the very same
for several words. When I tried to run both mods at the same
time, the greeting in the older one never showed up - it was
completely overwritten. Now, if I remember this correctly (it was
almost a year ago), I found a solution that worked in this case:When
I somewhat changed the text in the older greeting, the
"Info-ID"-number also changed, so, as far as I could
understand, the "Info-ID" should be related to the exact letters in
the dialog-entry.
Now, this problem of course happened mostly
because I was the author of both plugins. Probably, no-one else
would have started a greeting in exactly the same way as I (as
people think in different directions and use different words). So,
if my conclusions are OK, a dialog line would only be overwritten by
a newer mod if a dialog line in the newer mod starts with exactly
the same words.
Now, I definitely don't claim that my
conclusions are right (especially as this happened really long ago)
but I would love to hear someone elses (JOG!! )
opinion on this.
In this case, with Girlfriend and
Witchgirl, I had initially also used a few topics in BOTH mods. This
turned out to cause a similar problem: the topic initially wouldn't
show up at all in the older mod. But, when I added the topic also by
an "AddTopic" command in the dialog result-box, it would show up
even if overwritten. However, in the older mod, the topic wouldn't
be highlighted in the dialog. So, I of course rewrote all the topic
names. But I learnt how vital it is to always use "AddTopic" in the
resultbox.
Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, you can also see the
Info-ID in the Details list for the mod in TESCS.
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
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JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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Sorry, you're
wrong
The
Info-Id always stays the same, it isn't dependent on the text
contents, or a changed Entry would mess up the dialogue-chain for
all other plugins, and a copy of an entry would have the same
number.
Example:
Morrowind.esm only, Greeting1,
top
Code:
[You have failed your Oath of Silence] 204811946427354207051 Who's there? 12152275822093636854 All is silence.... 1588813549227325295
When I use "copy" on "Who's there" I get a copy of this line
with a new random ID-number
Code:
[You have failed your Oath of Silence] 204811946427354207051 Who's there? 243027979162761791 Who's there? 12152275822093636854 All is silence. [...] 1588813549227325295
Changing the text has no effect on the number, but if you
make the mistake and change the text from the line with info-ID
12152275822093636854, which is the original number, you're in danger
that another mod that contains a line with this number will
overwrite your line.
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
Corner
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Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1547 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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Quote:
Sorry, you're wrong
Hehe, no need to be sorry
about that, I'm often wrong .
Still, what I said about two (almost) identical greetings in
two different plugins is a fact - the older greeting will be
overwritten by the newer. Same goes for identical
topics.
Thank you for the explanation about copying dialog
lines in your last posting. It sorted out a number of things that I
was uncertain about. For instance, this should mean that there's no
harm in copying dialog lines that all belong in my own mod, at least
not as long as I make sure that the "original" of my dialog lines is
above the copied dialog lines.
I would like to ask one more
question, that I believe could be of general importance:
Say
that I have made out my mod as below.
[You have failed your
Oath of Silence] 204811946427354207051 THIS IS MY DIALOG LINE!!!
243027979162761791 THIS IS MY DIALOG LINE!!!
243487333791627617 Who's there? 12152275822093636854 All is
silence. [...] 1588813549227325295
Now, I want to change it
in order avoid problems for other users, who might be using several
dialog intense mods.
Would it be sufficient just to move the
line "Who's there?" and "All is silence" upwards (so that they will
once again be number 2 and 3 in the dialog chain). OR should I also
click "new" and re-write my first dialog entry so that it will have
a new ID-number (as it is now in the 4th row in the chain instead of
the 2nd)?
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
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JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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The numbers
are completely random and just there to determine how the dialogue
lines link together. So just move the original lines up, and all is
fine. As long as you don't change the original lines that have the
same Info-IDs on every modder's computer...
Sure, there is a
tiny chance that you make a new line, get a random number, and
another moder gets the same random number as yourself, but when this
happens, it's most likely that the moon will drop down and smash the
other ones house and computer before he can release his mod
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
Corner
Post Extras: |
JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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The numbers
are completely random and just there to determine how the dialogue
lines link together. So just move the original lines up, and all is
fine. As long as you don't change the original lines that have the
same Info-IDs on every modder's computer...
Sure, there is a
tiny chance that you make a new line, get a random number, and
another moder gets the same random number as yourself, but when this
happens, it's most likely that the moon will drop down and smash the
other ones house and computer before he can release his mod
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
Corner
Post Extras: |
JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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Just a little
bump...
Too important to be forgotten
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
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Nigedo |
Diviner |
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Reged: 05/29/03 |
Posts: 2594 |
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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Thanks JOG,
this is great info.
-------------------- Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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rascilon |
Curate |
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Reged: 12/15/03 |
Posts: 407 |
Loc: Monterey, CA | |
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Yes. It is
appreciated.
Rascilon
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Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1547 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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I digged up
this old thread with it's important contents concerning clean
dialog. It's very well worth a big BUMP.
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
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Wizthis |
Adept |
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Reged: 05/31/04 |
Posts: 264 |
Loc: In front of my computer at the moment
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First, Thanks
Jog & Emma
For those of us (Like me) who came late to
class.
1)
In "Greetings". If I wished to add a new greeting, is it better to
avoid certain "groups" like Greeting 0, Greeting 1...and place the
new greeting in 8 or 9? This would ensure not messing with ;ALWAYS
LEAVE THIS TOPIC AT THE VERY TOP OF GREETING 1 and things like
that-Yes-No??
2) This also include "Topics" , or is this just
good practice for "Greetings" editing?
3) In a Dialogue
tutorial, it uses extensive "copy" and edit. Is it better practice
to just do "New"?
4) And last question for us dense people.
Placing a "new" Greeting in the middle to be safe means:
Scroll to the middle of all the dialogue in a group and place
your new dialogue there?
Whoops!... ...one
more: 5) Will TES Tool fix any of these problems, or make it
worse when dialog merging?
Thanks
again.
-------------------- Here are Links to .DDS, .Tga, .Nif, 3D Programs and
Plug-ins.
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JOG |
Curate |
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Reged: 09/15/02 |
Posts: 745 |
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1. Greetings
8/9 are a problem 'cause they don't apply very often. Greeting 1 and
5 are safe and most common, just heed the rule that you put your new
lines between two old ones, and when making copies alway edit the
upper one.
2. Yes, it also applies to topics, you just have a
lot more conflict potential with Greetings 'cause every mod uses
them.
3. No, I also always use Copy+Edit, just make sure you
edit the upper line.
4. Yes. It's okay to have your new line
at the 3rd line from top or bottom, just stay away from the top and
bottom lines, and be very careful when you edit the 2nd
lines.
5. No idea. But it's very unlikely that a tool can
solve existing conflicts. (to do so you need to change the IDs) As
long as one mod's dialogue is 100% clean, there is no problem with
merging (the game does the same when you load the mods together) but
two unclean dialogues will cause the problems I described above.
Again:
- One mod with "unclean" dialogue will cause absolutely no
problems.
- Two mods, one "clean" one "unclean" also have no conflicts, as
long as the "clean" mod is older than the "unclean" one.
- When an "unclean" mod is older than a "clean" one, the clean
mod might remove dialogue from the unclean one.
- Real problems begin when you have at least two "unclean" mods.
Then the dialogue-sequence of the older one will be
changed.
The nasty thing about the whole
business is that the maker of an "unclean" mod won't notice it as
long as he doesn't run any "clean" mods that are newer than his one
or other "unclean"
mods...
-------------------- Havish (Updated to v1.2
!!!)
Pirates! (WIP)
My Morrowind
Corner
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Wizthis |
Adept |
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Reged: 05/31/04 |
Posts: 264 |
Loc: In front of my computer at the moment
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Thanks Jog...I
saved this thread and will refer to it.
Quote:
I also always use Copy+Edit, just make sure you edit the upper
line.
This was the BIG one I had
problems with-Thank you again! Be well.
-------------------- Here are Links to .DDS, .Tga, .Nif, 3D Programs and
Plug-ins.
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DinkumThinkum |
Diviner |
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Reged: 09/19/01 |
Posts: 4710 |
Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
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Quote:
1) In "Greetings". If I wished to add a new greeting, is
it better to avoid certain "groups" like Greeting 0, Greeting
1...and place the new greeting in 8 or 9? This would ensure not
messing with ;ALWAYS LEAVE THIS TOPIC AT THE VERY TOP OF GREETING
1 and things like that-Yes-No??
Emma posted some advice on
using the different Greetings sections in this post, in the Comprehensive Dialogue Thread..
The
whole thread has a lot of useful tips and info about dialogue, and
is highly recommended reading for anybody doing dialogue in mods
(after doing a tutorial, such as Srikandi's, to get the basics of
dialogue down).
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DinkumThinkum |
Diviner |
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Reged: 09/19/01 |
Posts: 4710 |
Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
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A bit more on
Greetings...
I strongly advise against making any
Greetings changes that will affect existing NPCs: it's just
too easy to break quests or cause other problems in the
game.
Filter your Greetings so they will only be used
by NPCs added by your mod and ignored by everybody else. One obvious
way is to use the IDs for your NPCs as one of the Speaker
Conditions. You can also use new factions (created by your mod), new
classes, new races, new cells, etc. as Speaker Conditions to
restrict new or changed Greetings to just NPCs added by your mod.
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